Curse

bungusmaximus · Nov 05, 2010, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Energy surge
reason: dual mesmer midline in HA tears shit to pieces, imho the entre mesmer update was a bad idea except for PI and leech. Mesmers used to be OP when ran by good players, now theyre OP when ran by shitters. Up the recharge imo. I want PD and PB back.

Coward
reason: this is a complicated one, there's nothing wrong with coward warriors, but on assassins it's one big unstoppable KD fest, they manage to get so much adrenaline that it's a pain to escape them. Tie to strength plz.

Soul Twisting
reason: the ability to lolspam spirits on recharge makes a certain build (see other thread) retardedly strong. Don't know how to fix it, might make it interruptable so u can camp the rit.

Falling assassin skills
Reason: BBwarrs being able to spamspam dagger attacks, falling lotus should be tied to crit strikes.

Visions Of Regret
Just smiters boon that shit, noone really cares.

Up to you people to make this list longer/shorter, those are just the skills that annoy the crap out of me.

*lemming* · Nov 05, 2010, 11:12 AM // 11:12

I'd hold off on this until the skill update hits (heavily rumored to be next Thursday).

Killed u man · Nov 05, 2010, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Energy surge
reason: dual mesmer midline in HA tears shit to pieces, imho the entre mesmer update was a bad idea except for PI and leech. Mesmers used to be OP when ran by good players, now theyre OP when ran by shitters. Up the recharge imo. I want PD and PB back.

Coward
reason: this is a complicated one, there's nothing wrong with coward warriors, but on assassins it's one big unstoppable KD fest, they manage to get so much adrenaline that it's a pain to escape them. Tie to strength plz.

Soul Twisting
reason: the ability to lolspam spirits on recharge makes a certain build (see other thread) retardedly strong. Don't know how to fix it, might make it interruptable so u can camp the rit.

Falling assassin skills
Reason: BBwarrs being able to spamspam dagger attacks, falling lotus should be tied to crit strikes.

Visions Of Regret
Just smiters boon that shit, noone really cares.

Up to you people to make this list longer/shorter, those are just the skills that annoy the crap out of me.

Going to post for the hell of it:

Energy Surge just needs to get kicked back to a 20 second recharge (can keep the cast time). However, Energy Surge and Burn have been around a long time, and never really got abused untill the MindWrack update. Nerf Mindwrack harder than you nerf Esurge and it'll still be a viable build.

Coward is a problem skill alltogether. KD's in general are overpowered, but they're the "good" kind of overpowered in such a way most KD's are conditional and/or punish bad play. Coward, in Sins as much as on warriors, is just one of those skills players poop out, and they'll keep someone at exactly the same spot regardless how good they, or the opponents are.
Bull's Strike is the balanced version of Coward (also non elite, but that's why Bull's is already such a strong skill). If you miss a Bull's, you have to wait 10 seconds. If you miss a coward, you poop some attack skills (or Thrill of Victory as warrior) and just KD him the next second.
The problem with Coward all together is that it doesn't punish bad play, it punishes good play. (You pretty much have to stand there and tank fire AoE)

I would change it to:

Quote:

"Coward!": Shout. If target foe is moving, that foe is KD'd. 7...3 seconds disabled if he wasn't moving. (Strength)

As I said in another thread, Soul Twisting is definatly broken (similar to the Rit Lord @ NF release), but there is other core factors with BBsway. Brutal Weapon being one of them, or maybe even the largest contributor to the offensive power.
Soul twisting actually makes alot of ritbuilds viable, but because the power of Brutal Weapon, these skills have always gotten reduced to Shelter/Union/Displacement because Brutal alone is as much offence as an intire regular bar together.

Nerf Brutal and you tone down the ST enough. However, fix the glitch that causes interrupted spirits still recharge instantly. (similar to MoI + signet mesmer still got recharge on interrupted sig of hums)

As for hexway: If it's not VoR, it's Panic or any other hex spell. The core problem with hexes has been hex stacking, and hex overload. Hex stacking is something that can't be fixed from a design perspective. Hex overload, however, can be fixed by either buffing hex removal or by nerfing hex power overal.

Diversion, Shame, aswell as backfire and so on are all pretty good skills. (including VoR) They punish foes for casting through them, and force them to make descissions. The power comes from the many other hexes that get pooped on your team that forces your Monks to cast through this shit without being able to do anything about it, as hex removals will only rarely remove the core hexes, but rather the covers. This way, the Domination line no longer because a punishing tool, but a spank tool. Poop hexes on whichever Monk on whatever time and you'll make them eat dirt.

Single hexes have never been a problem, tough. A well placed diversion or shame has always been the strength of a mesmer, and it dind't have to rely on cover hexes or Monks pooping skills. It all had to do with windows of opportunity and timing.

My solution? Either nerf every hex into the ground to become useless when stacked with too much other hexes OR buff the standard hex removals to remove all the cover hexes aswell as the core hex. Another solution would be to empower Monks when faced with hexstacks. (When there is alot of hexes, they get bonus healing)

I'll give an example of all 3 options:

Empowering Monks:

Quote:

Holy Veil: bla bla bla. Add: If target ally is still hexed*, that ally gains 50 health for each hex on him.

* After the removing effect of veil.

Nerfing hex overload:

Quote:

Faintheartedness: When this hex ends, target foe looses all hexes.

(As a way to prevent warriors from doing anything whatsoever as is usually the case nowadays with hexways)

Quote:

Insidious Parasite: Ends if target foe is hexed again.

(to prevent the covering of redicilously strong hexes)

Buff hex removals:

Quote:

Remove hex: Remove 2 hexes from target ally.

Hexways, esp in GvG, aren't that big of a problem, as long as you can spec for them. However, being able to spec against them is no excuse for them not being OP. The fact that teams still wipe with heal party spam, trip hex removals and a empathic shows there is a clear problem with the hexbuild when played right.

When you put indivual conditions on all the keyhexes (like my insidious) you prevent teams from pooping all their hexes because one necro's suffering might strip off another necro's insidious.

Hexes should be viable (One, maybe 2 hex dedicated casters), but there shouldn't be builds based upon them.

Ariena Najea · Nov 05, 2010, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Reminder that this thread is discuss nerfs in PvP and why you may feel such nerfs are needed. Don't post about PvE.

tealspikes · Nov 05, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Coward...I don't really agree with a nerf. I feel like coward and many other skills have been abused because of the buff to jagged , black mantis, and fox fangs. The nerfs Escape, shattering assault, death blossom, and others are all a result of buffing the said attack skills. Thrill of victory might be the only problematic thing on the warrior bar but I wouldn't go as far as to call that build overpowered. Coward is a skill that was well balanced (and fun to play!) before this recent powercreep.

Falling Lotus...just make backbreaker disable all non-warrior attack skills

Visions of Regret...agreed (I'd like to add Empathy!)

Energy Surge...I'm not sure about this one. I've always liked esurge because it's an extremely well designed skill since prophecies that can be used in many different ways depending on the situation...spike assist, aoe pressure, edenial...imo this skill and shatter enchant should be the only skills in the dom attribute that does straight spike damage - everything else should get the same treatment as overload/wastrels demise

Corporeal Ghost · Nov 08, 2010, 05:19 AM // 05:19

If you actually want to fix stuff beyond inspiring players to create new broken metagames, we need to look at concepts, not individual skills. ANet actually has a very high number of well-designed skills, most of which are lynchpinned by drawbacks. The problem is there are too many ways to circumvent these drawbacks too cheaply. Briefly running down your list:

Why is Coward broken? Because there are four or five ways to power adrenaline, and none of them were included in the original design for Coward (or Backbreaker or whatever).

Energy Surge
As far as I can tell, this one is just that people are, for lack of a better word, bad. Energy Surge used to be way more insane than it is now, with better support skills, often with more copies per team, and monks had much crappier energy to begin with. People need to sack up and learn to weapon swap, kite spellrange, and punish overextension again.

Visions of Regret
Hexes are implemented kind of poorly. This was largely held in check in the early days by the fact that there weren't enough powerful hexes to overload teams. It was a handful of nasty ones and a bunch of garbage to bury them, so pinpoint shutdown and good Veil work was viable. Hexes require an overhaul to not be absurd, short of just killing all of them until they're under critical mass again.

Falling attacks
This seems like bad skill design to me. Conditionals controlled by your opponent are basically awesome. Conditionals controlled by your team are gimmicky. Conditionals controlled by yourself force one-dimensional bars, and in order to make said bars competitive, they must perforce be more powerful (in their niche) than versatile bars. If you want dynamic gameplay, this is a problem, particularly since one of the higher-ups seems to want one-dimensional bars to be competitive.

Elnino · Nov 08, 2010, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Coward doesn't need a nerf. It's what powers it that needs to be dealt with.

Falling skills are fine - they require the foe to be knock-downed am I right? Again, it's what powers it that needs to be dealt with, and even then, those skills can be easily countered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

I'd hold off on this until the skill update hits (heavily rumored to be next Thursday).

WHAT

Missing HB · Nov 08, 2010, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Yes , i agree with most skills nerf except coward. It was mostly annoying in Hero Battles because of heroes of course , but here in HA i don't believe it's that annoying ....

However , i don't believe only doing Nerfs will do good for HA ( it will at best keep the same amount of players , and at worse make it totally empty for half the day), and they d rather do content update by fixing maps and joke situations such as 1v1 koth

Tyris Requiem · Nov 08, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Hexes...

The blood spammers pump insane amounts of pressure imo cap barbed signet to 4 bleedings per use, up life siphon to an an 8 recharge and oppressive gaze to a 15 Or something similar.... Esurge needs to go back to the 20 recharge at least and Mind Wrack could do with a nerf. Imo Faint has been over powered for a long time. I think anyone wouldn't complain if Empathy and VoR got a nerfing too...

1/2 second dagger skills...

The 1/2 second dagger skills moved sins to realms of mindless 123123123 pressure spam. As well as being able to build coward ridiculously fast. I wouldn't mind a nerf of 1/2 attacks to 1s or 3/4. If a 2-3 second disable for cowarding stationary targets that would be fine too.

BB wars...

BB wars are retarded... Nerfing BB wont cut it cuz everyone would just switch to ES/Dev/Magehunters etc and nothing would really change. This leaves thye dagger skills... I wouldn'mind seeing something like: Falling Lotus/Spider. Fail if Critical strikes <4.

Jade Zephyr · Nov 09, 2010, 10:57 AM // 10:57

I think both Energy Surge and Blood Necros are good for the versatility in the game.
They can both be ran in a a lot of different builds and really arent overpowered, just good.
The blood necro is just degeneration and weakness. Curse necro stacking hexes is much more problematic. Blood Necro can also have a free elite slot which makes it very good utility character.

Of the mesmer hexes though, I think Empathy needs the biggest nerf and my suggestion is doing it like they do in PvE. Give it -15 damage reduction but also half the damage to 25.
For VoR and Backfire they arent really overpowered, just make them 8 seconds duration instead of 10 and it will be okay.

Corporeal Ghost · Nov 10, 2010, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jade Zephyr

Of the mesmer hexes though, I think Empathy needs the biggest nerf and my suggestion is doing it like they do in PvE. Give it -15 damage reduction but also half the damage to 25.

That's actually just a buff. Right now you have the option of still hitting stuff at the expense of life/backline energy. Under that functionality, you no longer have that option. You just can't do anything but build adrenaline, knock stuff down, and apply deep wounds for the duration. Although I guess that's all a lot of warriors do anymore anyway.

Reverend Dr · Nov 10, 2010, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Everything in Nightfall and everything that has been buffed since then.

deluxe · Nov 10, 2010, 07:34 AM // 07:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Yes , i agree with most skills nerf except coward. It was mostly annoying in Hero Battles because of heroes of course , but here in HA i don't believe it's that annoying ....

However , i don't believe only doing Nerfs will do good for HA ( it will at best keep the same amount of players , and at worse make it totally empty for half the day), and they d rather do content update by fixing maps and joke situations such as 1v1 koth

Coward is not OP in HA because:
A: The sins that play it in HA are all terrible.
B: Nobody kites in HA, they just channeltank.
C: Nobody cares about HA.

kedde · Nov 10, 2010, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Coward isn't OP.
1/2 sin attacks are.

Sins shouldn't be doing 300 damage in 5 seconds when either you interrupt both their dual attacks or something similar just because they can spam quick recharging fast activation attack skills.
That these also power Coward is just retarded.

Sirius Bsns · Nov 10, 2010, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Coward - Elite Shout. Causes knock-down if target foe is moving. Disables all Non-Warrior Attack skills for 10 seconds if foe is not moving/fails to knock down. *This change would punish quick-attacking Assassins while allowing the Warrior primary to be more flexible and careless.*

Falling Sin Attacks (and all other possibly popular bbway attacks): 50% failure chance unless Critical Strikes 5 or higher. This simply prohibits secondary usage by any other profession except Assassins.

Visions of Regret - Elite Hex Spell. Also hexes foes adjacent to target (10 seconds). These foes take 15...39...45 damage whenever they use a spell and 0...15...30 additional damage if not under the effects of another Mesmer hex. Attacking foes lose 0...1...2 adrenaline per successful attack. *This punishes casters mainly with damage while having some utility vs. melee simultaneously, keeping it's versatility.

Tyris Requiem · Nov 10, 2010, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Coward - Elite Shout. Causes knock-down if target foe is moving. Disables all Non-Warrior Attack skills for 10 seconds if foe is not moving/fails to knock down. *This change would punish quick-attacking Assassins while allowing the Warrior primary to be more flexible and careless.*

Falling Sin Attacks (and all other possibly popular bbway attacks): 50% failure chance unless Critical Strikes 5 or higher. This simply prohibits secondary usage by any other profession except Assassins.

Visions of Regret - Elite Hex Spell. Also hexes foes adjacent to target (10 seconds). These foes take 15...39...45 damage whenever they use a spell and 0...15...30 additional damage if not under the effects of another Mesmer hex. Attacking foes lose 0...1...2 adrenaline per successful attack. *This punishes casters mainly with damage while having some utility vs. melee simultaneously, keeping it's versatility.

But then I wouldn't be able to run my coward war with a wild throw D; Imo its the dagger skills that are the core problem not coward. EDIT: misread it... lol. I guess this would be ok, 10 seconds seems a little steep, I'd prefer a 5 second coward disable on the elite itself for being bad with it.

This Falling attack change would be fine.

Idk about this VoR change.

I Jonas I · Nov 10, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

this backbreaker sin/warrior bar has been nerfed like 12 times, it isn't that powerful anymore. God damn.

also: I see what you did, reverend dr

Sirius Bsns · Nov 10, 2010, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

this backbreaker sin/warrior bar has been nerfed like 12 times, it isn't that powerful anymore. God damn.

also: I see what you did, reverend dr

If the truth could somehow be attained, I'd be willing to bet platinum that you do BBway like a mad man.

*lemming* · Nov 10, 2010, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

If the truth could somehow be attained, I'd be willing to bet platinum that you do BBway like a mad man.

Not everyone has ulterior motives.

Elnino · Nov 11, 2010, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

Visions of Regret - Elite Hex Spell. Also hexes foes adjacent to target (10 seconds). These foes take 15...39...45 damage whenever they use a spell and 0...15...30 additional damage if not under the effects of another Mesmer hex. Attacking foes lose 0...1...2 adrenaline per successful attack. *This punishes casters mainly with damage while having some utility vs. melee simultaneously, keeping it's versatility.

That looks a bit over-powered against warriors